Lisa Hough on Embracing Energy Maximalism, Bitcoin Sovereignty, and the Importance of Financial Education

Unlock the secrets to financial sovereignty with Lisa Hough, a beacon in the realm of Bitcoin and personal empowerment. As a colleague of Caitlin Long at Custodia, Lisa brings her wealth of experience from the trenches of energy trading and a firm belief in the revolutionary potential of self-custody. This episode is not just a journey through Lisa's impressive career from Unchained Capital to Salomon Brothers and Enron, but a masterclass in harnessing the volatility of the energy sector for financial independence. Her advocacy for energy maximalism is a clarion call for anyone yearning to break free from traditional financial constraints and make bold, confident decisions about their economic future.

As the conversation steers towards the broader impact of Bitcoin, you'll be thrust into the heart of global economics and media narratives that shape the perception—and reality—of cryptocurrencies. We grapple with Bitcoin's role in reshaping global reserve currencies, the advent of AI in transactions, and the contentious debate surrounding Bitcoin ETFs and market behavior. Furthermore, the dialogue shifts to the vital inclusion of Bitcoin education within academic curricula, sharing personal vignettes and the triumphs of thought leaders who are paving the way for a financially literate generation. This episode is an essential listen for those intrigued by the intersection of finance, technology, and education, offering both an informative and provocative perspective on the future of money.

The content in this program is for informational purposes only. You should not construe any information or other material as investment, financial, tax, or other advice. The views expressed by the participants are solely their own. A participant may have taken or recommended any investment position discussed, but may close such position or alter its recommendation at any time without notice. Nothing contained in this program constitutes a solicitation, recommendation, endorsement, or offer to buy or sell any securities or other financial instruments in any jurisdiction. Please consult your own investment or financial advisor for advice related to all investment decisions.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

My name is Michael Guyatt, publisher of the Lead Lag Report. Joining me today is Lisa Huff. Lisa, I've had your colleague Caitlin Long on a few times, actually on these spaces A big fan of her and everything you guys are doing. But introduce yourself to the audience and to me a little bit more formally. Who are you, what's your background, what have you done throughout your career and what are you doing currently?

Speaker 2: 0:25

Thank you so much for having me, Michael. I really appreciate it, and I had no idea you've done 600 of these. I mean just my hat is off to you.

Speaker 1: 0:35

I have way too much time on my hands. I'm actually going to be doing a space while presenting to a CFA chapter in literally 40 or 55 minutes after this conversation. So you know I'm doing my best here.

Speaker 2: 0:45

No pressure. Well, you're amazing, great. So, yeah, I work with Caitlin Long, merrily focused on helping institutions. I didn't mention nothing. I say is the opinion of Custodia, it's all my. These will be my opinions, not financial advice, not tax advice, not any advice at all. Custodia is not FDIC insured. We are operating in about 32 states for some, if not all, of our products and services. So, with those disclaimers, well, the team, most of our, as you can imagine those conversations they're usually in in what these companies are working on and what their interests are, what that's doing, or be it my financial service, if it's fun, kind of like great seat to be in. The other thing I really love to do, too, is I always invite folks to reach out on LinkedIn or here on Twitter. If I'm in a chat, I can get in line, or if you have questions, I'm happy to chat with you. So that also is huge, because people you know meet with me and they tell me what they're building or what they're working on or what they hope to build, and those have just been phenomenally interesting over the years and, like in the last four years, I've seen people build businesses that they've been talking about and push Bitcoin into their businesses that they're working for. So it's been really fantastic.

Speaker 2: 2:09

I worked for Unchained Capital, helping people self-custody. Self-custody is something I'm hugely passionate about. Highly encourage you guys to all go check out Dhruv Bansal, the co-founder of Unchained, his writing on astronomy and Bitcoin and just this you know, decentralized web of communication that could be interplanetary. I read he has I think it's three parts. I read the first two this weekend just had my mind absolutely like exploded with joy. I love thinking about just all the possibilities in Bitcoin that far exceeded as an asset or a store value or even as a medium of exchange. I think there's so much territory that's uncharted. So what I was saying after that is I traded natural gas forever ago and great career, high pay, low hours, but a ton of stress.

Speaker 2: 3:04

I worked at a lot of the big companies, including Salomon Brothers and Enron, and my interest in Bitcoin really came because I was greedy and was looking at my portfolio, ended up having an argument with my financial advisor who invited me to take my assets completely off of the Ameritrade platform. He just felt like I was reckless and irresponsible because I wanted to lean more towards tech you know really risky stocks like Amazon and Nvidia, but this was maybe 2017 or 2018. So they were not hugely volatile, but maybe a little more volatile than they are today. But I was also interested in energy equities and energy, I believe at one point was like 30% of the S&P and is now, I think, creeping back up, but maybe at its low it went to just over 2% or maybe about 3%. So huge reduction of interest in energy companies, which I just felt was, I don't know, a moral hazard, a national security hazard. I am an energy maximalist. I hope I don't offend anyone. Actually, I really don't care if I offend anyone. I'm an energy maximalist.

Speaker 1: 4:19

Do you think that, since you use that terminology reckless and irresponsible, that you almost needed to have that kind of personality or mentality or trait to get into Bitcoin in the early years, to really be aggressively in the technology?

Speaker 2: 4:32

You know what? I don't consider myself an early adopter to anything. I also don't consider myself to be reckless. I do, though, have the confidence when I want to do something. I really rarely ask other people's opinion. I really don't.

Speaker 2: 4:49

You know, it's not that I don't care. I mean, when I graduated from college, for example, I didn't want to go to graduation. I was glad to be done. I actually hated being in school, didn't find it interesting. I was a science major Probably not what I would have chosen. I'm very glad now because it allowed me to get out of school and get a great job.

Speaker 2: 5:10

But my dad basically said you can be a science major or a math major, but I'm not paying for anything else. And I did want to graduate debt free. So I got a science degree, but didn't walk the stage. And my parents got so mad, and I just said you know, this was great, I love you, and I bought a train ticket. I'm going to do this You're a real past thing for the summer, and then I'm going to come back and I'm going to get a job.

Speaker 2: 5:36

And they were not happy, right, like they threatened to just cut me off. We're not giving you any more money. Blah, blah, blah, you know, and I said that's fine. I mean, I'd worked since I was 14 years old, had my own money, happy to spend it. So I've always had financial freedom, which I believe does not mean that you have a ton of money, it just means that you have. You have your own resources right and you're in charge of your own destiny financially. You have confidence in your own ability to create abundance in your life. So I've always had those thoughts about myself. I have the ability to create abundance to meet my own needs. Fear of, like you know, being destitute and living under a bridge, and mostly because I see people in our society who so quickly can go from one status to another, and I don't think that there's much appreciation for how quickly a financial disaster can happen to an individual person or family, even when they may look like all is fine on the outside.

Speaker 1: 6:42

So, yeah, it goes back to that line I've taken from Hemingway Slowly, then all of a sudden, right things can change very quickly. Now the energy maximalism is interesting because whenever I hear the word maximalism, my mind obviously goes right to the Bitcoin maxis. That's the association there between maximalism and Bitcoin. I want you to talk about the intersection of energy to Bitcoin, to AI, because I'm with you, I think that that point about the sector waiting, you know, becoming a smaller, smaller portion of the S&P 500 over the decades, that's an opportunity if the Bitcoin dynamic, if the AI dynamic, does continue along this trajectory.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Yeah, I was just flipping through some notes I was actually making this morning, so, oh, where to start? Yeah, I'm an energy maximalist, and what I mean by that is I believe that more energy is necessary for more human flourishing. We know that energy poverty is defined by having less than four hours access to energy in a day access to energy in a day. We, of course, don't face those problems in the United States, but in most other places in the world they don't have 100% access to energy all day long. But on a larger note, I think that energy is directly related to national security, and our national security is tied to many things, but primarily it's economic, it's tech and it's our military power, and that triad, if you will, allows for a nation to have national security. And what's a huge part of that is onshore energy production, and so I'm hugely opposed to those who and not just in the US I just shake my head when you hear around the world that people are shutting down energy sources. Certainly, technology allows us to progress and to grow, and I would think that's everyone's plan. Right is to basically mine the cleanest, most efficient form of energy. I mean, why use an old engine when you can use one that's more energy efficient or whatever your analogy might be. But I think that our national security is directly related to our energy policy. And it's interesting because when I was reading Dhruv's stuff this weekend on Bitcoin and AI and astronomy and how all of these things go together, you realize that.

Speaker 2: 9:19

Let me give you a statistic. The WEF estimates that AI will add $16 trillion to the global GDP by 2030. So if you think about the enormity of that right $16 trillion, bitcoin is a little more than a trillion. That's incredible. And yet how will those transactions for AI be settled Right? You can't. I'm not mailing a check to the chat GPT people. I'm not sending them a PayPal. Like our technology will advance. The monetary technology will advance hand in hand with AI and you know, I think, that in a world, domination is going to be directly related to progress on the AI front.

Speaker 1: 10:10

Of course, you need to have the infrastructure for that too. The dilemma that I have with all these estimates and all these things around AI is it's going to use a shit ton of electricity, right, and it doesn't and that was always a criticism, I think, around taking over every single roadway. We just don't have the grid for it what's wrong with more energy?

Speaker 2: 10:30

what's wrong with using more energy?

Speaker 1: 10:32

no, I agree, I'm not. I'm on the same page on all that. I guess it's a question of sort of the speed with which deployment happens when your starting point is already an infrastructure which is not anywhere near as robust as many would argue it should be.

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, I think. I mean I see my friend in the audience. You know he and I have this constant conversation of, like you know, the energy guys are coming, they're waking up, but if you have access to resources, if you have access to energy resources, like, you've got to put the pieces together and realize that Bitcoin is hugely related, it's beneficial, like these things will become a symbiotic being Energy, bitcoin, ai, right, these are all wrapped together and so it's a global race for energy. It is just absolutely a global race, and for anyone who's not acknowledging that or who believes that we should constrain our energy usage or that we should shut down existing energy facilities, like you're a threat to national security.

Speaker 1: 11:39

I've had other people in these spaces talk about how they're using the flaring from gas to mine Bitcoin, and I think that's part of the intersection that you mentioned. Talk about how different energy companies are trying to take advantage of, you know, the Bitcoin megatrend and maybe some of those mechanics, because when I did those spaces in the past, like maybe a year ago, I found the whole thing fascinating. As a part of the industry, I didn't know existed the sort of excess flaring of gas that comes from the oil drilling and then that being used to power the miners. Talk about that, because I think that's a whole really fascinating dynamic.

Speaker 2: 12:14

Yeah, absolutely, and maybe Dan will hop up on stage with us. He is absolutely an expert in the oil and gas world. But, yeah, I kind of give three examples in the oil and gas world. But, yeah, I kind of give three examples. So, yes, everybody, I think, is aware of this. I hesitate to use the word narrative, but I'm lacking another one.

Speaker 2: 12:32

We all hear about methane mitigation and Bitcoin mining and that's wonderful and it is right, but there are so many other opportunities to monetize molecules that are otherwise disadvantaged, and I used this word a couple of weeks ago and someone said oh, I thought only children were disadvantaged. I didn't know energy was disadvantaged, but I posted something yesterday that prices in this gathering system. In the US there's a pipeline and gathering system known as Waha. These prices were negative like $2. And yet you've got companies like Amalgamated Sludge, dan's company, who's in New Mexico, who has 54 gas wells and he's turning negatives. Basically, he'd have to put his gas into a pipeline for negative dollars, right? Or what he's doing is he's mining Bitcoin and his realized price for his gas is somewhere around $10.

Speaker 2: 13:37

So disadvantaged gas is a huge thing. I mean, you've also got gas that's just stranded. There is no pipeline right, there's lack of midstream infrastructure. You've got generation companies who pay essentially to have excess power absorbed by the grid so that they don't have to shut down. Right, that's a non-zero number. And so, again, like monetizing molecules that you've never been able to monetize is a huge thing, and it's a zero to one for the energy companies, because it's my belief, and hopefully theirs, that they have the responsibility to their shareholders to monetize every molecule and to use every efficiency known to them. And now they know.

Speaker 1: 14:25

I want to pivot to the name of the space drowning in fiat. I've used that line before. It's like in a world awash with liquidity. There actually isn't that much at all, and I say that because all that liquidity seems to only go to a select number of players, while everybody else has to deal with raging inflation and higher taxes. For the most part and I feel like this relates very much to the discussion around education when it comes to Bitcoin, energy, the state of economics, debt, all this At least, I want to get your thoughts on where the Bitcoin narrative has been correctly focused versus where it's not been correctly focused.

Speaker 1: 15:02

Now, where I'm going with that is, I think there is a lot of merit to Bitcoin from an asset allocation portfolio perspective. You mentioned the financial advisor side. I myself have made it a point that the purest definition of the market is all investable assets, not just the S&P 500, which means Bitcoin is a part of that. You just have to weight it appropriately, but you can correct me if I'm wrong on this. I think the narrative using that term, which I think you and I both dislike around Bitcoin has been you've got to be very heavily weighted in or you're going to be poor, and now you've got Bitcoin ETF to allow you to do that without the hassle in quotes of self-custody, which I know you're not a big fan of. As far as that end of things, talk about just sort of where that narrative, where that story on the education side has been right and wrong and where it's maybe shifting to hopefully a better place for normies or trad-fi bros to understand it.

Speaker 2: 16:28

I'm not quite sure I understand the question. I think we're really bad storytellers in Bitcoin, right, and I think we're really bad storytellers in Bitcoin, right, and I think our marketing department is failing us. We don't allocate enough budget to our marketing department and maybe we should. Right, and I'm joking, obviously, but I think the you know I don't want to lay blame, but our mainstream media has failed us and maybe it's our own fault because we partake in that garbage, the CNBC narratives, the Elizabeth Warrens of the world, like they're failing us. And it's again back to the national security thing. It's deeply concerning that they're not only letting other countries take dominance, but they're pushing the dominance offshore. And so if you think about who a true economic contender would be with the US, right, it's not Russia. They don't have developed capital markets. No one's ever viewed their currency as a strong currency. They don't have companies that folks are heavily invested in like they're invested in the US. But who is a dominant contender? Right, and we all know the answer it's China. Having Having investment policy, having access to economic stronghold, supports our national security.

Speaker 2: 18:04

And if you push Bitcoin aside because the narrative is it's used by terrorists or the narrative is it's bad for the environment. The environment you are. I mean, you are giving up, like, the strategic advantage that we have currently, because you're not moving with the future, right? The future is that Bitcoin will be the global reserve currency. All AI transactions will be settled in Bitcoin. I would offer that all transactions will be settled in Bitcoin. I mean, maybe we use the dollar, fine, I don't, you know. Fine, if we use it as a I don't know a token. If you will, it's just easy for us to use it. But I just I find that the you know, the narratives, the storytelling is just terrible and I wish that I had a solution to it. I don't feel like I'm a great storyteller, but certainly in Bitcoin there are amazing storytellers and amazing writers. But I don't know. I think our problem is that we haven't been able to control what is said about Bitcoin and we're changing that. Thank God for Twitter.

Speaker 1: 19:08

I'm curious then does it worry you, then, that maybe the narrative is now being shaped by, you know, the Black Rocks of the world? And you know the black rocks of the world and you know, given the launch of the Bitcoin ETFs and, of course, all the wholesalers and salesmen and saleswomen that are now out there pushing it?

Speaker 2: 19:24

I think that without the ETFs, we wouldn't see quick price appreciation, which I think the price appreciation will be rather explosive over the next two years. I think that's largely due to the ETFs. I think if it were pleb to pleb, we wouldn't see this kind of price appreciation. I think Bitcoin would still succeed. You know, larry Fink got on TV and called it hope. He used the word hope. He said it was a flight to safety. I mean, I've heard a lot of the ETF guys speak. I was in New York a couple of weeks ago for an ETF conference. What I heard was pretty great out of their mouths. I think they're on the same page as most Bitcoiners. Maybe our feathers rustle a little bit because we consider them traditional finance and we consider ourselves not traditional finance. I don't know, I don't feel that way. I'm grateful that they're here. I'm grateful that they've brought some stability. Yeah, I don't know, it's exciting. We'll see how it plays out.

Speaker 1: 20:21

So I'll take a different view as somebody who's not a Bitcoin max. I've made that point before that I think Bitcoin ETFs maybe, with hindsight, could be seen as a negative in terms of adoption, and the only reason I say that is knowing the ETF wrapper and knowing that the holding period for ETFs is actually the shortest among all investment vehicles right Shorter than mutual fund because it's priced second by second, which encourages people to trade and overtrade. Holding period for ETFs is certainly shorter than private funds because there's no gate that it could result in kind of an easy come, easy go dynamic when it comes to price movements that the wrapper is encouraging. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. I'm simply skeptical, not because I don't think Bitcoin ETFs are a good thing. I'm just worried about investor responses to that, with opening and closing hours, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Look, I believe in the free market. I don't know what the number is right now for oil, but commodities trade hundreds of times for every barrel that's delivered, maybe thousands. I don't know what it is right now, but it's a lot.

Speaker 2: 21:30

I believe in derivatives. I think derivatives are good. I was part of a derivative market that developed in the late 90s when I was trading you know. So what if people buy and sell it? I don't care. I think eventually they're not going to sell as much of it. Right, they're going to realize that all money converges to one, that the hardest assets win, that we're in a very unstable geopolitical century and that they have to hold some of their energy their own personal energy and their own security within Bitcoin. So I don't see them trading it, or the ETF wrapper or the timing of the market. I don't see any of that as a negative.

Speaker 1: 22:14

It is an unstable geopolitical century which is a longer tail trend dynamic. It seems like there is some really interesting short term geopolitical risks which are taking hold. I have noted that the movement in gold, I think, is actually really disturbing in some ways, and I only say that because the speed with which is happening feels panicky and I don't think it's FOMO. It's not like the gold bugs of 2011, 2012 that's causing the move. I think it's large money looking for diversifiers, non-correlated assets, and the question then becomes why? Maybe some of the moves in Bitcoin is that as well.

Speaker 1: 22:51

I think the jury is maybe still out on the idea that Bitcoin can act as a risk off play. It's still largely correlated to risk on equities, but you and I both know that that can change and oil is starting to get some real momentum here. I'm just curious, shorter term, how you're maybe interpreting some of these big moves in, particularly in gold. I know everyone likes to pit gold against Bitcoin. I think that's actually a mistake from a lot of perspectives intellectually and even from a portfolio allocation perspective. But any thought or observations on, you know if some of these parts of the marketplace are maybe sniffing out something that could be coming.

Speaker 2: 23:26

Yeah, well, I prefer to look for similarities and things, not differences. And you know, I think an argument for gold is an argument for sound money. So I do think that gold bugs and Bitcoiners are on the same page. If you're a gold bug and you're not yet a Bitcoiner, I do believe that you will be. I don't think that there's people in Bitcoin who look at gold and think it's terrible or whatever. You know, I mean, I think we look at it. We go, yeah, that really worked and now there's a better form of this, there's a better form of sound money. And oh, by the way, I can use it to transmit value to China tomorrow or today or whenever. Right, I can send a billion dollars to Cuba, and I've never been able to do that. But on the speed thing, I'm not sure that gold has been, I'm not sure it's been so fast. Right.

Speaker 2: 24:19

To me, this is like we've been watching China, we've been watching Russia just remove their exposure to the US right to treasuries or their US denominated assets. We're watching this in real time. And where are they going? Right? I mean, I'm sure that they are buying gold. I'm sure that other nation states and sovereigns are buying gold. I think it takes a while for markets to reallocate or for it to appear and us to see it. But yeah, I mean, I do agree. I think what your thesis is that this is maybe people are afraid geopolitically or they're sensing trouble somewhere. Yeah, there is trouble. We've known that there's trouble, like Joe Kalsari talks about what's going on in the markets all the time. Like it's crazy when you look at charts or numbers and then you hear our officials in the Federal Reserve or wherever say that oh, everything's fine and the economy looks great and jobs are great, whatever it's like, it's very hard to reconcile when we know that's not true.

Speaker 1: 25:26

Yeah, it doesn't have to be that. You know, I think central banks would prefer gold over Bitcoin, whereas you know, probably most people prefer Bitcoin over gold just because of you know the ease with which you can use Bitcoin versus carry around gold. So it does create sort of this interesting. The Venn diagram doesn't exactly match up on sort of where the demand may be coming from.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Yeah, I don't know. I also really don't understand what the manipulation is like in gold. I mean, I've often heard that it's a manipulated market. I don't I've never dedicated any time to that, but you know perhaps that the price has been suppressed over the last year six months, two years, whatever the timeframe is and we're just now beginning to see those things work out.

Speaker 1: 26:10

So you sent me a note saying that one of the things that you wanted to address is that there's more and more educational institutions either creating programs around Bitcoin or trying to educate a graduating class around cryptocurrencies in general. I haven't actually heard too much about that, but I'm sure it's happening slowly but surely. Maybe just give a little bit of context on that, because I think that's interesting, because that's the next generation being much more aware of it than older folks like me.

Speaker 2: 26:38

Yeah, I'm really excited. I mean, I think what they're doing at Me Premier Bitcoin is absolutely incredible. I know that curriculum is being spread to many know to many places and I think that the hope for us all and the hope for Bitcoin really lies in this younger generation. Because, you know, if you will, they're not. They don't have all this malware in their brain. They're not programmed through what's being said on the news. They don't watch Fox News or CNBC or CNN. They don't have all of that that they have to shift through or remove from their vernacular. They just see Bitcoin for what it is. They don't bring the negatives with them.

Speaker 2: 27:21

At Texas A&M, kourouk Ray teaches a class. Obviously, nick Batia at USC, I think, is where he is teaching. I mean, there are classes that are developed, that are developing. There's more interest, and my daughter is doing an independent study at her college which took 18 months to get approved after much I don't know, just fraught with opposition for her doing this. She was told to study the gold standard. She was told to study I don't know, money or whatever, like she was told that Bitcoin was such a narrow topic. You know, 18 months of pursuing it. They finally are allowing it. I mean, I think that's a step in the right direction that universities now can allow for these conversations on their campuses. I just think we'll look back and think this is just such a joke that we all went through this turmoil and struggle to get Bitcoin taught on a college campus or to get Bitcoin addressed, you know, and maybe this is what allows us to teach financial well-being in grade schools or middle school, right, financial well-being in grade schools or middle school, right? Like we don't talk about money with our kids broadly and we should, because I don't know.

Speaker 2: 28:33

I've been a very honest parent with like, look, you are going to get out of college, you're going to have to start paying your own bills. We're not paying your bills after you graduate, like at all. Like, you're graduating, you're paying your own bills. And so what has she done? She's worked all the way through high school. She's worked in the summers in college. She's not able to work during the year, but she's working in the summers and saving her money. She knows that she's on her own.

Speaker 2: 28:57

Like, every kid needs to feel empowered with that message from their parents, because any other message from your parent is a message of no confidence. Right Me telling her you have to go support yourselves today after you graduate, is a complete vote of confidence in her. And you know where better to have a partner in this education than our schools, right? I feel like I parented so differently from what she was taught in school. My messaging at home was so our messaging her father and I's messaging was so different than what she was learning in schools. And you know, to be able to teach alongside your school or to be able to support the same notion or values, it would just be a terrific idea. I think we sort of lost the plot somewhere in public schools or somewhere in schools broadly.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Can you give us a sense of what those curriculums actually look like? I mean, are they, is it more about you know sort of financial planning? Is it more about just macroeconomics? I mean, what is the actually taught in the courses themselves? What is it most akin to?

Speaker 2: 30:01

I'm not sure, actually, but folks can look up the Texas A&M offerings and you can look up Nick Bazzi and what he's doing Programs she created for herself. Her degree will be Bitcoin. Her diploma will say Bitcoin, but it's comprised of game theory, cognitive science I'm probably describing this incorrectly but maybe a little philosophy economics. She built a program weaving in what she thought were the critical elements in Bitcoin and, funny, like fun fact, when she was trying to get this done two years ago at Pacific Bitcoin, we were backstage talking to Terrence, I think, and a few other other swan guys and Michael Saylor walked by and so he you know, we I don't know there were like five of us standing there and talking and said you know, I'm working on getting this program approved at my school. You know, do you have any suggestions? And for like 30 minutes he stood there maybe longer, probably longer than 30 minutes. He stood there just with and had a conversation of like here's what you need to focus on. Here's how I would do this. You know this needs to be in the engineering school. This is monetary engineering, but you know, here are all these things that you could make a part of this program. Like that is hugely visionary right Like.

Speaker 2: 31:24

What if everyone was talking about that, like, why aren't? Why isn't like, why aren't? Why isn't there monetary engineering? Or why isn't there a bitcoin program at every school there? Absolutely should be right, we study economics, we study math, we study cells, we study astronomy, we study english. We should be studying bitcoin like it's the coolest topic on earth. How many spaces are there? How many people are there talking about it on a daily basis?

Speaker 1: 31:51

I want to go back to the start of the conversation you mentioned. Custodia operates in 37 states and obviously there's a lot of logistics that go into operating on a state level. I am curious have you seen a broader trend where for lack of a better way of saying it the red tape is maybe becoming less onerous as you operate a business in the space, or are there more and more questions or more and more hurdles?

Speaker 2: 32:15

Yeah, I don't have any visibility into that. I think it's like 32 states. Y'all can go to our website. We have a complete map of what products and services we offer in each state. I don't have any real insight into that, although I do know that in at least one state where we were trying to get licensed and I don't remember what state it was, but you either need, like money transfer licenses or an exemption in order to operate, and custodian is a bank or chartered in Wyoming, regulated by the Wyoming Division of Banking. So it's in many instances it's been possible for us to get an exemption and then thus be able to operate in the state.

Speaker 2: 32:56

But in at least one state we haven't been able to. We haven't yet been able to work with their banking division in that specific state, because that banking division didn't contemplate a full reserve bank. There was no language for them to contemplate a full reserve bank. Right, we're not FDIC insured I think we aim to be but we hold $1.08 for every dollar on deposit, so we are a full reserve bank. Think of how ironic that is that a banking division in a state doesn't know how to deal with a full reserve bank. That's pretty indicative that things are broken, or, if not broken, maybe it's time for an update.

Speaker 1: 33:38

Lisa, for those who want to track more of your thoughts, more of your work, I know give any help If you have a business and you could use help with custody.

Speaker 2: 33:51

Happy to help. If you are a business and you need a banking relationship, delighted to help. Yeah, just reach out if I can answer any questions. It's really my favorite. I think it's the reason I love this job is that I get to be of service to people. I hopefully get to be of service to people. It's my aim to be of service to folks and to help their businesses grow right. We have to be supportive of one another. We have to support businesses, especially within our own ecosystem, so that we can see the ecosystem flourish and then spread the good news throughout the world.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Hi Brad, please make sure you give Lisa a follow. You'll see another space, which is going to be actually a pretty big one, talking about lumber and gold, two topics I don't talk about enough. Thank you, lisa, appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 34:32

Bye Michael. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Cheers everybody.