Lead-Lag Live

Amy Nixon on Post-Pandemic Housing Dynamics, Mortgage Lock-in Paradoxes, and Strategic Investment Insights

• Michael A. Gayed, CFA

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Discover the unexpected consequences of a post-pandemic housing market with renowned housing analyst Amy Nixon. As mortgage rates rise, the phenomenon of mortgage lock-in is holding homeowners back from selling, creating an intriguing paradox of constrained supply amidst cooled demand. We unravel the unconventional tactics like builders buying down mortgage rates and the rise of cash transactions, while navigating the unique challenges confronting first-time buyers. With a spotlight on regional trends in Florida and Texas, we question whether the current housing prices are sustainable across different market tiers.

Next, we dissect the interplay between federal interest rates, housing prices, and immigration. With an insightful examination of Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell's stance on economic independence, we explore how immigration impacts both the construction labor force and housing demand. The intricate balance of these factors is evident in booming markets like Florida and Texas, where the decision to upgrade homes despite higher rates is a critical choice for many. Amy and I delve into the potential effects of changing immigration policies under the Trump administration and the resulting pressures on construction labor and rental demand.

Lastly, we gaze into the future of the housing market and investment strategies for 2024. The so-called "silver tsunami" of retirees selling their homes, particularly in Florida, creates a ripple effect on local markets, influencing real estate landscapes across the nation. As we weigh the merits of renting versus owning, I share my personal investment philosophy, emphasizing assets like gold, Bitcoin, and equities that promise better wealth-building opportunities than real estate. Join us as we tackle these complex issues, offering insights that could redefine your approach to housing and investment in the coming year.

The content in this program is for informational purposes only. You should not construe any information or other material as investment, financial, tax, or other advice. The views expressed by the participants are solely their own. A participant may have taken or recommended any investment position discussed, but may close such position or alter its recommendation at any time without notice. Nothing contained in this program constitutes a solicitation, recommendation, endorsement, or offer to buy or sell any securities or other financial instruments in any jurisdiction. Please consult your own investment or financial advisor for advice related to all investment decisions.

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Speaker 1:

At what point is the mortgage lock-in effect no longer going to matter, meaning presumably at some point people are going to say I want a bigger house and I don't care that I locked in at 2.5% 3% rate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think for now, on a small scale, it's sort of just like it happening on a micro level. If it's your family and you had another kid, or you had another kid and you own some Bitcoin, and so then you're looking at your 401k and you're like, hey, I think we can swallow this now. We can take this ickier mortgage rate and bite the bullet and do this upgrade. But that's happening on an individual level. I think to how it happened on a wide stream level. Mortgage rates would have to be in the fives.

Speaker 1:

This should be a good conversation with Amy Nixon. I've been trying to get Amy on the show for a while. I've had her on Space before. First time she and I are doing this kind of face-to-face and obviously it's going really well to start off. If any of you watching this across LinkedIn, X, YouTube, whatever platform you're on you want to engage and ask a question, we can see your comments, we can see your posts, so don't hesitate to make this interactive. It makes my life easier as somebody who's asking questions to have other people ask questions as well.

Speaker 1:

We're going to be talking about macro, the Trump pump, housing and Florida, which apparently has a huge surge in listings, as I'm sure we can touch on, like we're seeing in some parts of Texas as well. So, with all that said, my name is Michael Guyatt, publisher of the Lead Lager. For joining me for roughly now 30 minutes, given our timing, is Amy Nixon. Amy, I know a lot of people have seen you and you've gotten a nice following on X, but for those who are not familiar with your background, who are you? What's your background? What have you done throughout your career? What are you doing?

Speaker 2:

now. So my name is Amy Nixon. My background is in media and marketing, but in the last couple of years I sort of reemerged from being a stay-at-home mom for a decade and I started on X about four years ago and just was posting about the crazy Dallas housing market because we live in Dallas and we were right in the thick of it. I think my husband and I bid on like six homes in 2021. And it was crazy like cash offers, 10% over list. We just were shocked because we didn't see it reflected in any of the official inflation data at that period of time. It caught up later, obviously. So I just got really fascinated. I thought this was like a big story. So yeah, since then I sort of just went down the housing market rabbit hole, became a full-blown housing analyst and mostly just have stayed active on X.

Speaker 1:

I don't have my own YouTube channel or other platform yet, but I've been really happy just with X and with the growth there All right, let's talk about being a housing analyst in a really weird cycle post-COVID, because that's one way to have baptism by fire when trying to learn about how to analyze housing. First of all, a lot of people, including me, have gotten things wrong when it comes to housing. I think a lot of people, including myself, thought that the fastest rate hike cycle in history, which of course applied to mortgage rates, would cool demand down and obviously the supply lock-in effect on mortgages is now well covered and well known. Over the last three, four years, what's been surprising to you and expected when you look broadly at housing?

Speaker 2:

The biggest surprise to me was that while demand did cool down, supply stayed really tight because, again, that lock-in effect really made a difference and because of those factors prices stayed high. And I was in this boat as well early on that prices would have to come down to reflect the fact that the cost of borrowing was significantly higher. But instead there's been workarounds. There has been just a higher percentage of homes being sold by builders, so the builders are buying down the mortgage rate. There's been a higher percentage of homes than ever sold by cash. There's been a higher percentage of homes than ever sold by cash, so they're just bypassing the mortgage rate issue completely. And then there's just been really low transaction volume. So all of those pieces have sort of enabled the market to look better than it is, and by that I mean the prices look good, but the market fundamentals are actually pretty terrible.

Speaker 2:

Mortgage applications are in the gutter still. They, you know, will. Every month they'll be like oh, there was a little rebound this month, blah, blah, blah. But if you zoom out it's bad. And it's the same thing for transactions, the total volume of homes sold. If you talk to any mortgage lender or real estate agent you will understand, it has been a drought since they hiked rates, so the market is not transacting normally the way it should, with credit being borrowed and homes being purchased by first-time homebuyers that have X amount of income and X amount of down payment. That part of the market has been totally squeezed out and instead homes are being bought with wealth and a wealth effect.

Speaker 1:

I was joking that in the past that the reason housing is still strong is because NVIDIA has made everybody rich except me, apparently and Bitcoin. But let's talk about maybe the sort of cash only side of this, because I'm going to assume that there's a very big difference obviously between the really expensive homes and everything else. Because, to your point about the credit, you know, mortgage end of things and the cash side of things, Is there any sort of historical comparison where we can say that the maybe overvaluation of the top tier housing is at a point where there's likely to be meaner version against stuff which hasn't done as well?

Speaker 2:

You know, actually the rate of price growth is higher in the lower priced homes than the luxury or higher end homes. Right now it almost feels like the luxury or the higher end homes are kind of operating in their own worlds. Like you said, it's sort of like the Nvidia heirs and the homes are kind of operating in their own worlds. Like you said, it's sort of like the Nvidia heirs and the Bitcoin people that became millionaires in two years. They're able to play in this real estate market in a different way than just a median American family that has X dollars of down payment, needs to borrow X amount of money at X rate, which is a high rate. Now, and the builders have, like I said, the builders have tried to step in and cover that first-time homebuyer demographic because they're the ones that are offering the rate buy downs which significantly help first-time buyers the most, because first-time buyers typically don't have any wealth, they have income and they scrape together that down payment. Don't have any wealth, they have income and they scrape together that down payment. So I actually think the luxury market will continue to hold up better.

Speaker 2:

However, the big caveat, which is what I'm telling everybody when I talk about housing now, is the stock market, the Trump pump, the wealth effect. If that goes away, bye-bye to luxury housing and all of these high prices that have stayed afloat by wealth. We've not seen a recession yet. Since the rates were hiked officially, on paper, there's not been an acknowledged recession and we've not really seen a correction, a strong correction, in markets. So it's hard to make a case that home prices would come down significantly outside of a few areas in the Sunbelt where there's overbuilding In normal areas. It's hard to make a case that there would be a downswing in prices without a correction in the stock and crypto markets. But I do not think those are off the table for 2025.

Speaker 1:

Speaking about the Trump pump, is there anything that Trump can do to keep housing you know, on a local level elevated, I think you know? Are there any policies that might impact the housing market in ways that are maybe unintended? I'm always skeptical that the federal side can do very much.

Speaker 2:

Locally. No, I mean, I think the biggest thing that Trump can do, and is doing without even being in office yet, is pump all the other asset classes, because that wealth effect, to be honest, like what scares me a little bit about next year is we have not yet seen the wealth from this cycle, like this recent last six weeks that's not pumped through the rest of the economy yet. That will go into housing at some point. If it stays the way it is, that's how we're going to see another bump of inflation. This is what happened in 2021.

Speaker 2:

So Trump's best bet to keep home prices up is to keep everything else pumped up and elevated, which is what's happening so far. I don't think he I mean Paul's already come out and basically said you know, trump is not, I'm not his puppet, I'm not going to lower rates just because he says so, which you know. We got a lot of pushback on that in 2018. And there was Trump was coming after Paul and he wanted those low rates this time around. That's not going to work and a large part of it has to do with just the 10-year yield in general. It's even if Powell were to say OK, trump, I'll do what you want, I'll lower interest rates. The 10-year is having none of it, so we aren't going to get what we had the first 2016 Trump cycle, which was just reliance on lower and lower rates to get higher home prices.

Speaker 2:

I think that's over. To be honest with you. To get higher home prices? I think that's over. To be honest with you, I don't think we can go back to a Fed funds rate that is as low as what it used to be, not with the inflationary environment we have now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, barring some cataclysmic crisis. Right, I'd probably agree with you on that. At what point is the mortgage lock-in effect no longer going to matter, meaning, presumably at some point people are going to say I want a bigger house and I don't care that I locked in at 2.5% 3% rate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think for now, on a small scale, it's sort of just like happening on a micro level. If it's your family and you had another kid, or you had another kid and you own some Bitcoin, and so then you're looking at your 401k and you're like, hey, I think we can swallow this now, like we can take this ickier mortgage rate and bite the bullet and do this upgrade. But that's like happening kind of on an individual level. I think. So how it happened on a wide stream level, mortgage rates would have to be in the fives and probably the low fives.

Speaker 2:

Right now I don't see that happening for at least Q1 and Q2 of next year, based on the current economic data we have right now is it's running a little bit hot. I don't see how we're going to get rates that low. But, like you said, there is that always external cataclysmic black swan thing that can happen, that could push us back to low rates. But that would be in a backdrop where, again, stock market's crashing, probably crypto would be crashing, and you're not going to be seeing a lot of people running out to go get their 4% mortgage rate or whatever it would go back to at that point.

Speaker 1:

Have you done any work on how immigration has impacted or maybe distorted, housing in different parts of the country?

Speaker 2:

Immigration is sort of like there's two sides to it and it actually could be a bit of a wash Because, on the one hand, immigrants, even illegal immigrants, are a big part of the labor market and construction laborers the price, the cost of construction labor has gone through the roof this year. Their wage growth has been. It set a record in 2024, meaning we don't have enough workers and they're having to pay more and more to attract them. So, in order to build housing, like we've done in Florida and Texas, in the Sunbelt, where one of the few places where we actually are back above 2019 inventory levels and we do see price drops are those areas where we have been building. So, on the one hand, we have immigrants that are building new housing and we need that. On the other hand, every time we have immigrants come to the country, they need housing, so they're.

Speaker 2:

I'm not of the thought that Trump's going to really heavily deport. I think he's going to focus on criminals if he's going to do deportations. I don't think there's going to be a sweeping mass deportation or putting up stricter borders, stronger borders. Stopping some of that flow in is going to again. It's going to cost us some construction workers, but it's also going to like have fewer people coming in to take apartments or create demand for rentals and other.

Speaker 2:

You know occupancy, so ultimately I think it'll probably be a bit of a wash. I don't buy the idea that you know occupancy, so ultimately I think it'll probably be a bit of a wash. I don't buy the idea that you know, just because we've had all this illegal immigration, that suddenly that they're buying all the houses in the country and that's why you know I mean a lot of these houses are being bought by foreign foreigners that don't live here. I mean it's not just coming here isn't necessarily making everybody buy a house, and most of the people who come through the border are not high-income workers that are going to be buying these $450,000 medium-priced homes.

Speaker 1:

Let's talk about how that slogan or mantra slowly but not all of a sudden, sudden could impact housing. So a friend of mine texted me earlier this morning sending me a post that basically looked at the number of homeless for sale in Florida and how that's like skyrocketed. And you're seeing this, you know, in pockets of certain counties and cities or you know suburban areas, but not really statewide. Maybe Florida is a bit isolated, but I'm curious to hear your thoughts on is there a possibility that there could just be a sudden unlocking of these homes that have been locked up in terms of being available for sale, because of animal spirits, you know, and it's kind of the effect of the wealth effect actually causing people to say, you know, yeah, let me list my home, and that creates, maybe oddly enough, some downward pressure.

Speaker 2:

Yes, I do believe actually, that you know that is starting to happen in Florida, like you said. Unfortunately, there tends to be a little bit of a herd mentality when it comes to stuff like this and when everybody's home you know, when nobody's selling everybody's home is high priced on paper, you have no motivation to do anything. But when you start to see those prices slipping every month and that's, you know, oftentimes happening alongside your taxes going up, your insurance going up you sort of start to see a little bit of that. You know you don't want to be the last one out. So there does tend to be a little bit of a rush for the exits, not as much as you would see with a stock or crypto, because those are much more liquid markets where people don't live in it so they can dump it.

Speaker 2:

There could be a little bit of a panic exit just because that is people's retirement, that is their wealth, and if they are in a position where they were thinking about downsizing or moving into like assisted living, nursing home stuff, the difference for them between selling a house at I don't know 800,000 versus 700 in a correction, that's a lot of money to a retiree that is relying on X amount of dollars to live through the end of their life. So I do fear for some of those, like you know, you talk about it's called the silver tsunami or whatever when they're talking about the boomers dying and selling their homes in rapid succession, dying and selling their homes in rapid succession. I think the retirement heavy areas like Florida are far more vulnerable to that type of behavior and some of it's just going to be their kids, you know, inheriting the property and being in a rush to dump it before it goes a doubt in value. And they, you know, they just want to cash out. It's just they got to cash out and split it amongst themselves.

Speaker 1:

Are there any new trends developing in terms of states where housing could actually be a beneficiary of people moving out of Florida or moving out of Texas and you know kind of where the housing side is weakening there? Is there some other area of the country that benefits from that?

Speaker 2:

area of the country that benefits from that? Yeah, the Midwest. It's kind of crazy to see the Midwest market right now. These are markets that still have homes that cost $250,000. These are not typically, they've not historically been hot markets, but investors are loving them right now. There were bidding wars this last year in Missouri. I think one of the top markets was somewhere in Wisconsin like near Green Bay.

Speaker 2:

These are not typically. They're not markets where there's been a lot of jobs or high income or a lot of draw for people to live there. But the draw now is affordable housing and especially if you're a remote worker, because these are some of the only places left in the country where you can still buy a four bedroom home for under $300,000. And we've seen sort of a flood to these lower you know median price markets in the Midwest over the last year and investors have been heavily shifting that way as well. And just anecdotally, I have heard from retirees people you know that my parents would know and things like that who were in Florida. They were in the villages, they had bought a retirement home down south and they're moving back to the Midwest because cost of living they're on fixed incomes and they can't make it in Florida anymore.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I've heard similar stories. So what is your view on inflation then? I mean, obviously housing is a big component of inflation through shelter, but do you get a sense that that the inflation battle is has been won? I mean, it seems like there's a real concern of reacceleration under Trump.

Speaker 2:

No, it's not. It's not been won. And you know, michael, I got a lot of pushback this year. I think I came out I think it was Julia LaRoche's podcast. I went on in March of this year and I basically said you know, I was wrong about there being a recession in 23. There wasn't. And when it came to inflation, I said I felt that this year was going to be not high inflation, but slightly, persistently higher than stickier than it's been in the past, closer to three than two. And it's done exactly that. I'm not surprised at all by any of the events that have happened. You know, over the course of this year.

Speaker 2:

I think that the Fed was in a position where it was sort of choose recession, pain in the labor market to try to get 2%, versus just taking what they had, which is more like two and a half or three, and trying to go back to growing the economy.

Speaker 2:

And they made the choice I thought they would make, which is to cut rates and try to go back to growing the economy and hope and pray that inflation stays controlled. But as soon as they started cutting with the conditions that we had, I felt like all the inflation risks went to the upside and the Trump pump is just adding further fuel to that fire. So right now, this is what December 24. My current prognosis for next year is, in terms of inflation, is that it's going to persist a little bit higher. It's going to be a little bit more stubborn than they had hoped, and the risk to markets is going to come from if the Fed has to stop cutting and consider hiking again, because I don't think any of the markets are positioned for that right now and that would sort of be like 2022 again please don't say that, because that was hell for me in 2022 as a, as a manager, and so that was.

Speaker 1:

That was a just give the idea that the dual collapse and in treasuries, you know the obviously right relative to equities. From a portfolio perspective, I'm curious how do you yourself invest? I mean, obviously, everyone knows you more on the housing side, but you know what do you do when you are seeing what's ahead and how do you allocate.

Speaker 2:

So I'm not a financial advisor, I don't have credentials to give, I'm not registered to give financial advice or anything like that, but the advice I give is I call it, I eat my own cooking. I give the advice that I actually take myself. So, like I said, I think it was March of this last year that I went on Julia LaRoche's podcast and then I followed that up in June. I went on Natalie Brunel's podcast and I told people that I felt like for 24, the positioning that you wanted was not to be investing in real estate. I said that you wanted to be investing in things that cannot be printed because I felt like inflation was going to be running still a little bit too hot through this year printed because I felt like inflation was going to be running still a little bit too hot through this year. So the things that I suggested at the time were gold, bitcoin and equities, and I think that all three of those have outperformed real estate. Like, how do you purchase real estate in March versus buying any of those things? Gold had a good run earlier in this year, bitcoin obviously is running now and the stock market's done very well this year. So that was the advice that I gave to people. That is what I personally started in February of this year, taking the income that I make on X for ad revenue and just putting it into Bitcoin every month. So I started in February and I just consistently have been putting that in there.

Speaker 2:

That's my you know, that's what I've been doing and so as soon as I started doing that, you know, I came on a podcast and I said this is what I recommend investing in, because I was doing it myself. I'm not just going to tell people like, oh, go buy this, go buy that. And also, you know, our family is renting right now. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people I don't think real estate is a great investment when I'm, you know, buying a house. So right now, you know, my husband and I are, we are renting, we want to buy a home at some point, but we consider there to be better opportunities to invest capital and get yield outside of real estate right now. So, basically, like I said, I think for so the time being and I'm never going to be able to time markets or predict, you know where's the top of all of this but right now I still like equities, I still like Bitcoin, I still like gold, and there will be a point where there will be a correction a pretty heavy one and crypto again, that is coming, but I can't tell you, michael, if that's going to be like June of next year or December of next year.

Speaker 2:

I don't get the blow off top exuberance feeling right now. I think we're in the earliest stages of getting to that. You know mania. So I do think there's still upside to be had in this market, but, like I said, it's I don't know, it's hard. This is why I tell people to cost average in, because at some point there will be a downswing and it's going to be pretty substantial, but I can't tell you when. So I don't want people to just sit on the sidelines and not invest at all, but I also don't want people to just go in full in leverage. Oops, that actually was really close to the top. So, yeah, I like cost averaging and no leverage, so then you don't get wiped out.

Speaker 1:

I would not have pegged you to be a Bitcoin maxi. Not that maybe you're ai, but all right no, I like it, I'm not.

Speaker 2:

I'm not all in on bitcoin, that's, but I need to let me clarify that, um, out of like all of the assets that we own, um, you know, my twitter income is a very small portion of that. So that's just sort of our risk allocation. We're using that, but you know, in our risk allocation we're using that, but you know, in general, no, I primarily we're invested in equities, primarily.

Speaker 1:

Can we talk about the sort of renting versus owning this point here, Because let's apply it to sort of more of a national perspective, Because there's always the argument of you, you have to always own, you have to always own. Renting is, you know, you're paying somebody else to own. Obviously, when you look at ownership versus renting here and I've seen some data as far as the ratios of the two against each other is it in general, broadly speaking, just better to rent now?

Speaker 2:

It's dependent on your circumstances, but I think, in terms of financial yield alone, if you're looking for just financial returns and you're not thinking about things like locking in a school district for your kids or having just the security of a neighborhood or knowing you're not going to be moving anytime soon, and you're looking just from a financial yield standpoint, I think renting is a better choice right now, and there is a record level of millionaires and high net worth people that are choosing to rent right now, and a large part of that has to do with that. There's a chart that always circulates on X where it shows like the cost to own is up here and the cost to rent, similar is like down here. There's this big gap and historically that gap always closes. But right now you can really leverage that gap as a renter if you have capital. So, and if you don't have capital, you're probably stuck renting anyway because you don't have a down payment. But if you have capital that you can invest in, like I said, any of those other things that you had bought January 1st of 24 would have outperformed real estate. So and then you're.

Speaker 2:

And also the other thing is I think there's this post, I think it was. Strip mall guy just posted something great on X about talking about the cost of homeownership. Because there's so many things you you buy a house, you immediately pay a chunk of closing costs. You pay, you start paying taxes every month and you're paying interest towards that house. That is just throwing money away, as they say, of renting. Well, you're throwing this money away. You're throwing money away on maintenance and interest and taxes when you owe. So if you're just going to use sort of that argument and make it all financial, then it actually makes more sense to rent and be invested in other assets and other instruments of wealth building than a house.

Speaker 2:

But if you're a family and you want your kids to go to a certain school or your wife is like I need to buy a house now or it's over, you know there's all kinds of reasons where people will buy a house for emotional or family reasons that it's a utilitarian choice, because you live in it.

Speaker 2:

It's not a Bitcoin, it's not a piece of gold, you actually live in it. It's not a Bitcoin, it's not a piece of gold, you actually live in it. That sort of those reasons put it outside of the investment realm and put it into easier to argue like an investment in your life or your family or your kids, but in terms of just fiat dollar yielding returns, I don't think residential real estate is where it's at right now and, case in point, this year I think home prices are going to close the year up around 3D it's not determined yet, but it's going to be probably like 3% to 4%. That's inflation, that's the rate of inflation. So you didn't really come out ahead if you bought a house this year, like in terms of financial yield.

Speaker 1:

What's your sort of long-term vision for what you're doing? You mentioned the media side of things. You don't have like a sub-stack I don't recall right now, right, I don't so like for you, as you do this stuff and as you're out there at communicating, do you have sort of a a goal in terms of what you're trying to get out there, in terms of what you're maybe going to launch in the future?

Speaker 2:

You know, I've thought about it a lot. Um, my husband and I have been talking about it over the last several months, sort of like where do we go with this? Because I do feel like you know, like early on I had a lot, of, a lot of what I did was sort of alarm people or point out here's problems in the market, here's oh gosh, we're losing the American dream. What do we do? And it was a lot, I didn't mean it to be negativity, I meant it to be pragmatic, like, oh gosh, you guys need to start thinking about how you're organizing your life and think about how you're investing, because this avenue that was open to our parents so easily to, just when they were 25, get a loan, get approved, buy a house for you know $30,000 or whatever they were that is closing that door, is closing on a lot of young people now and it's kind of like an alarming thing.

Speaker 2:

But I also want to feel like there's a solution you can offer to people. So not just be in this position where you know I'm running around ringing alarm bells all the time but not giving people something that they can do, some sort of alternative way to finance or invest to get towards that American dream, but I don't have the answer to what that is yet. There's a couple things I've stood on, toyed around with, but haven't landed on anything yet. I will let you know when I do.

Speaker 1:

And hopefully we'll have less technical difficulties.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh. I'm terrible at tech so that doesn't help me. With like people are like start your own YouTube channel. I'm like it would be like a black screen with like fuzzy noise.

Speaker 1:

I mean, yeah, but you know, in today's world I feel like that would get subscribers because just people are. It would like an asmr type thing, right, it's like people would laugh which is just odd to me. That's all I. I don't get the asmr thing. Uh, amy, for those who want to track more your thoughts, more your work, uh, where would you point them to?

Speaker 2:

I guess twitter x is sort of the main one yeah, I'm just on x on twitter, um x, I'll call it x now um. And you know I appear on podcasts when I can. This this fall has been tough for my schedule to do that Um. And then I'm on Fox business for again, when I can make it on um fairly regularly and I usually will post on X when I'm going to be appearing on like one of the news media.

Speaker 1:

So Always uh, be on the lookout for Amy Nixon. Appreciate those that watch this live. This will be an edited podcast under the lead lag live and I will see you all in the next episode. Thank you, amy.

Speaker 2:

Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Cheers everybody.

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Michael A. Gayed, CFA

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