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Lead-Lag Live
Value Beyond Growth with Kevin Orr
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So talk me through sort of the awareness campaign and talk me through how do you get somebody to consider this over a path of SPY.
Speaker 2:I'm talking to you from Boston, where I live right now, and I think of the whale watching boats, right, and you know, when there's a whale on one side of the boat, everybody runs to that side of the ship and the ship tilts to that side right. That's kind of what large value, large dividend paying strategies are. The boat will tip towards those sectors generating lots of yield REITs, utilities and so forth. This whale boat, kvle, is stable in the water, right. It's generating its yield as an optimization input. Right, so it's selecting the top dividend paying companies.
Speaker 1:So it's selecting the top dividend paying companies, but it's maintaining diverse, diverse, diverse sector exposure because it's optimized versus the S&P 500. This should be a good conversation with Kevin, or about some interesting undiscovered opportunities, which I think there are plenty of, by the way, especially when it comes to the value style of investing. We'll talk about that. Talk about KVLE, their fund. If you want to engage during this roughly 30, 40-minute conversation, as we're live, don't hesitate to post whatever comments or questions you have on whatever platforms you're on. I can see it, we'll bring it up.
Speaker 1:I've kept on teasing that next week is going to be a big week. I've got a big new hire coming. She's going to be helping a lot on doing these media podcasts, live streams and hopefully elevate Lead Lag Media to the next level as we continue to grow and the team expands. Not an easy thing to manage when you're going through a lot of growth, but certainly a good problem to have. So, with all that said, my name is Michael Guy, a publisher of the Lead Lag Report. Joining me here is Mr Kevin Orr of Craneshares. Kevin, I think first time you and I are really chatting, so introduce yourself to the audience, to me. Who are you? What's your background? Have you done throughout your career. What do you do now at Craneshares?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks. I've been with the firm about almost four years now. I head up strategic partnerships, which is a function that oversees the senior most relationships with the firm, both on the distribution and business side, as well as some of the sub-advisors and investments investors. We have portfolio managers of some of the funds we have. Prior to that, I was starting my career at Putnam Investments where I spent most of my career, cut my teeth on the ETF space with an ETF strategist, worked for Thomas H Lee, the private equity manager, for a few years, built out a quantitative ETF strategist business for Tom in New York, got introduced to John Crane when I was with the ETF strategist, when I was a consumer of ETFs and got to know the CraneShares story, very excited about what they were building at CraneShares, the team they put together. We bought the business from Tom a few years back and when that happened, after that transaction, I was able to finally join with CraneShares and it's a great firm. We've got some really interesting strategies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and your product lineup has really expanded quite a bit. I think most investors know you for K-Web, but you've got a whole suite of things now that obviously go beyond China. So maybe just start kind of just big picture as far as CraneShares, some of the offerings, some of the direction about the company and then we're going to get into value investment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we've got an interesting array. We're known the flagship product, as you mentioned, k-web, which is one of the largest not the largest China-focused ETFs on the internet side of the technology side 6.5, actually it's a $7 billion ETF right now. So 6.5, actually it's a $7 billion ETF right now. So we kind of have three legs to the stool in terms of our product suite the China-focused products led by K-Web, other emerging markets and China thematic products. In that section we also have a suite of very compelling climate investing products first to market with Carbon Futures ETFs and I think my colleague Luke Oliver, you've had on the program a few times. And the third leg of the stool which is growing rapidly is our liquid alts group. We have managed futures liquid PE supervised by man group. I'll throw KVLE into that bucket. It's US equity but it differentiates itself in numerous ways by providing yield with keeping a core S&P 500 construct.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we think of KVLE is the Crane Shares Value Line Dynamic Dividend Equity ETF ticker KVLE, yeah yeah, and I think I want to focus on the word dynamic, because I always say it means active, right, so let's talk about what dynamic means in the context of developing a product.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it's not static, it's not just buy and hold. We've partnered with ValueLine in the product. It'll have a five-year track coming up in November. It scores very highly in all the Morningstar metrics.
Speaker 2:Value line has been around since the 1930s. Was established in 1931, founded by Arnold Bernhardt. Arnold was at the time was an analyst at Moody's. I didn't realize Moody's was around back then. Um and um after the market crash of 29, he said look, the industry is failing us, we need a better way of valuing uh, these companies. So he broke off and started value line. I remember um early in my career when I worked at Putnam investments um back in the mid-90s.
Speaker 2:You walk around the floor and you see all the portfolio managers' offices and you'd see these huge, huge binders of value line reports like a foot thick. It's sort of a staple. It was a staple old line stock research firm. The current stock research ranking systems that we use in the ETF were established in 1965, the timeliness rankings and the safety rankings and we're the only product in the marketplace today that leverages both these iconic value-aligned stock ranking systems. So we incorporate them into the decision-making process of the product. It's a model. It's quantitative and systematic. I'll get into that in a little bit. But we're excited. We're very excited about the product.
Speaker 2:There's only one other product in the marketplace that carries the value line name in the product and they only use portions of the value line research. We get to use the best of all of their content in designing the strategy. So that's kind of dynamic. It's active, it's rebalanced every month. So every month the index constituents get rebalanced. Value line provides us with the index weightings. We distribute dividends on a quarterly basis and it's designed to be core-like with amplified yield right. So we don't want many sort of higher-yielding dividend products in the marketplace quality products in the marketplace yielding dividend products in the marketplace.
Speaker 2:Quality products in the marketplace generate their yield by overweighting or going to the sectors of the economy where the yield is coming from. In those cases you get kind of lopsided portfolios. You get sort of heavier weights in the utilities and REITs and so forth, and that's OK. But you got to know what you're getting. They're more volatile and that's okay, but you got to know what you're getting. They're more volatile. This product, by design, is going to be diversified across sectors. In fact it's very much core-like. We kind of sometimes call it the new core, meaning that it's providing you with S&P 500-like exposures at the sector level, but we're designed to provide much, much more yield than the S&P 500-like exposures at the sector level, but we're designed to provide much, much more yield than the S&P 500. So I just looked before we came on the podcast, and the current 30-day SEC yield for the product, for the ETF, is 2.65. That's versus a 1.11 yield on the S&P 500. So we're giving you core S&P-like exposure in terms of exposure to the sectors and industries, with an emphasis on yield.
Speaker 1:You mentioned quantitative. What goes into some of those metrics on the quant side?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so a couple of things. So we use an optimization tool to help us identify the constituents of the portfolio. I'll start with the value line. So I call them iconic, but they've been around since the 60s ranking systems, stock research, ranking systems, timeliness and safety. And what Value Line does is it ranks the largest 1,600 or 1,650 stocks in North America and each one of those stock is ranked from one to five, both on the timeliness scale and the safety scale. What we do is we basically kick out any ADRs. Any company that's less than a billion in market cap gets kicked out any Canadian names.
Speaker 2:It's truly a larger cap US equity universe of holdings and each one of these names has a timeliness and safety rank from one to five, one being the best. So the timeliness ranks basically tell you. It's a ranking system that attempts to identify, on a relative basis, which stocks are going to outperform each other on a six to 12 month basis. It's looking at earnings revisions, it's looking at price momentum. So every one of the 1600 names in the universe gets ranked and the top 100 are in the rank ones, and so on and so forth, to the number five rank and historically rank one stocks have outperformed, rank two and so forth. On the safety side, safety is more of a measure of financial strength of a company. So those stocks that are ranked one on the safety scale are those that typically weather the storms better, right, they've got strong balance sheets, they've got price stability.
Speaker 2:And each one of these ranking systems have their own detail factors that generate these ranks and these are proprietary to value line. So the product will take these 1600 names. We emphasize the ranks ones and twos. Each, each, each rank gets an alpha score. So we're basically every security in the system in the universe is ranked. And then what we do is we also look at we want to make sure that we're only focusing on the top 25th percentile of dividend yield in the universe. So, and we do that and that's an input into the optimization tool. So all these factors are input into the optimization tool.
Speaker 2:We target a tracking error or active risk of around 450 to 500 basis points versus the S&P 500. No one name will have more than 1.5% it's weighting in the S&P 500. So if we hold a name in the portfolio that's in the S&P 500, it'll never be more than 1.5% greater than the weight in the S&P 500. There are many names in the S&P 500 that are not in the portfolio. The portfolio is roughly 80 names-ish 80 to 90 names and it basically generates a diversified portfolio, very similar sector weightings to the S&P 500, with greater yield. Right now the portfolio has about close to 30% in tech. You typically don't see that in a high yielding quality portfolio, but one of the benefits of the strategy is that it gives you exposure to some of these sectors that aren't typically included in the traditional sort of large value, large yielding portfolios.
Speaker 1:How much does the quantitative aspect of it result in portfolio changes? And when you say it's meant to be core, is it a function of it having all the stocks in, say, the S&P 500, or is it being selective or just overweighting and underweighting? I mean, talk me through the replication process there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so the turnovers are. Every month the index constituents are reconstituted. It has about an 80% turnover, so it's not dramatic in terms of the shifts. It's more smoother, sort of a calmer allocation shift over time. Yeah, so that's basically again, the quantitative aspects are the factors within the value line sectors.
Speaker 1:Okay, interesting. So obviously it's meant to be core. The challenge, as you know, is how do you pry people away from their existing S&P 500 core holdings, especially when the gains have been so substantial? So talk me through sort of the awareness campaign and talk me through how do you get somebody to consider this over a path of SPY.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, it's a good question, it's an important question. It's a challenging space. Right, we're fishing in the biggest pond. Right, and in terms of, like K-Web, we're sort of the flagship leader in the space. In US equity, large value, large dividend products is a myriad of offerings. What we're starting to see, though, is that we're getting traction amongst model portfolio providers, etf model providers Everybody's got exposure to US equity. Everybody plays the value growth game.
Speaker 2:The compelling aspect of this strategy is you don't need to rotate between value and growth. This product, by design, will be biased towards higher dividend paying securities, quality large companies, but not at the expense of sort of. I think of a I'm talking to you from Boston, where I live right now of a I'm talking to you from Boston, where I live right now, and I think of the whale watching boats. Right, and you know, when there's a whale on one side of the boat, everybody runs to that side of the ship, and the ship tilts to that side. Right, that's kind of what large value, large dividend paying strategies are right. The boat will tip towards those sectors generating lots of yield REITs, utilities and so forth. This whale boat, kvle, is stable in the water. Right, it's generating its yield as an optimization input, right, so it's selecting the top dividend-paying companies, but it's maintaining diverse sector exposure because it's optimized versus the S&P 500. So that's an attractive characteristic for model providers.
Speaker 2:Everybody's got S&P 500 exposure. This is a way to get S&P 500 plus yield. So if you're worried about missing the rallies in some of the tech names, we have exposure to the tech names. In fact, the largest position in the portfolio is NVIDIA, right, so our top five holdings, four of them are tech names. So we are going to, we're going to get you, we're going to keep you in the game in terms of tech rallies. But again, we're, we're, we're lower volatility, higher yield, a diverse portfolio very similar to the core S&P 500.
Speaker 1:Do you get a sense that we're maybe going to get back to an era of more sort of thoughtful portfolio construction, because, let's face it, it's been a passive game for a number of years? I'm sure there's something that you talk about and Crane shares quite a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they used to call that, you know, back in when I was working at Putnam Investments. These are called a dumb money, right, where you just want to get exposure, and I think the market there's a place for that, right, people just want exposure. But I think, more and more, you're seeing the smart, beta, active strategies. The key is can you clearly, over time, add value? Right, people are willing to pay for alpha um and if you have a disciplined, repetitive process, um, that not only is designed to to, to exploit a phenomenon in the marketplace, but can consistently do that over time, um, there's a place for you. And I think, more and more you're seeing active products come back. You're seeing an influx of active ETFs, right, you know, in the ETF space the whole game started, as you know, passive, cheap exposure to sectors, to chunks of the marketplace and an efficient wrapper the ETF. And now the next evolution of that is active. So you're seeing more and more markets go to active strategies and I think the way you do that in ETF land is through systematic quantitative techniques, repeatable algorithms that, over time, will put the odds in your favor. And now you're beginning to see the whole blurring of public, the whole, you know blurring of public and private exposure in ETFs and in strategies, and that's sort of the next evolution. I view that as active.
Speaker 2:But at CraneShares we're launching more and more active strategies and a lot of the strategies are the activeness is embedded within the index design right ETFs, track indices and in the case of KVLE, we track the value line index that we're very involved in designing with our value line partners. But the key is sort of disciplined and over time, being able to deliver on what the objective is. It's kind of like you know what mutual funds used to be right Mutual funds. You know. One of the reasons why mutual fund companies have been so hesitant over time to get into the ETF space is they worried about you know their IP getting out there in the market because you have to disclose your positions frequently you know at least daily and so that was always a challenge for the active managers and the mutual fund companies. But more and more you're seeing techniques and tools that enable active managers to get in the game, and at Craneshares we're clearly a part of that phenomena.
Speaker 1:I see on the website description you define it as a, in quotes, smart beta strategy. That's a term I haven't heard in a while. It was like all the rage, I think, in 2015, 2016, can we, can we talk about that idea of smart beta and maybe sort of the evolution of how people have viewed it over time?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think, yeah, smart beta, you know it's an interesting, it's an interesting name. Um, we've played with dynamic beta, active beta, you know. Smart beta kind of I think it's something that was coined by the institutional community, which kind of coins themselves as smart money. But it's not like beta. Beta is sort of passive exposure. You're exposed to it. You know the good, the bad and the ugly. Right, market goes up, market goes down. The good, the bad and the ugly. Right, market goes up, market goes down. You're in for the ride.
Speaker 2:Smart beta is sort of a term that sort of encompasses those strategies that attempt to shape the return. Right, you're not just gonna, you're gonna try to manage the market exposure through factors, through techniques, and that's what we do with KBLE. Right, we're not just looking to find high dividend paying stocks and then concentrate on that at the expense of everything else. We want to leverage the prowess of these value line ranking systems, focus on the top ranked securities in their system, take that information, blend it with other techniques, other risk factors, targeted tracking error. Targeted yield based upon the top 25% of the universe, as I mentioned. Targeted yield based upon the top 25% of the universe, as I mentioned. Making sure that when we have exposure to a name, we'll never be extremely overweight that position relative to its weighting in our benchmark, the S&P 500. So all these techniques are employed to basically dynamically adjust and manage the portfolio to maintain the objective of the fund and in this case it's basically designed to give you core exposure without over-weighting anyone's sector and generating yields substantially higher than that of the S&P 500.
Speaker 2:So smart beta is just another term for disciplined, active management, typically via quantitative techniques. It's not Peter Lynch sitting in his office deciding I like this name, I don't like this name. It's not fundamental. That's very challenging. There's a place for that. It's not really. That doesn't lend itself to ETF space. Etfs have to be disciplined and repeatable and systematic because you have to have a methodology. Every index has a methodology document and so that's basically the roadmap for the process of the ETF and we publish. Our methodology is published and available online as well.
Speaker 1:You mentioned that. You know, just given your the type of work that you do, your talk through advisors and investors and individuals. I'm curious. I mean, what's do you get a sense of kind of like, what's the mood and what is it that people are looking for? I mean, you know we had this tremendous rally. You're at the forefront of the sort of sales side of things, right, so talk to me about what you're hearing from the advisory community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's mixed. Obviously there's a, there's there's. You can kind of there. There is a sort of an anxiousness in the marketplace, right, the market's been doing phenomenally well throughout all the noise, I think you know, with the passage of the, of the spending bill, with the, you know, the, the tariff situation. I think the market, I think a lot of the advisors that I'm in, firms that I that I talk to on a frequent basis, have a feeling that, um, the market isn't necessarily um, um, that they're underestimating the impact of tariffs in the market. I mean all the, all the news and the sort of the, the, the, the sense in the market is that, oh, you know, there's not going to be tariffs, it's going to be managed. You know we're hearing really positive things about the deal with China, fingers crossed, very hopeful there, good signs there, um, but in general, um, I think some of the more astute advisors that I talk to and I listen to think the impact of the tariffs are being underestimated and we'll see that flow through coming in the future, the not too distant future. So people are trying to steal their portfolios For that occurrence.
Speaker 2:The markets have been rallying in a very positive way. I think there's a bit of cautiousness, sort of seeping their way into managed money, which is a good segue to KVLE, because KVLE is a lower vol S&P 500-like portfolio with yield Great, great product for this kind of environment. When you're nervous you don't want to just load the boat on NVIDIA and NVIDIA's friends, right? You want to have a much more diversified sort of back to basics approach. So there's a bit of a nervousness. I think clearly there's a trend afoot, for valuations outside the US seem to be more attractive than in the US. We're seeing greater exposure to developing markets, including China, and we have that. We have a suite of models that we've designed in collaboration with BlackRock that contain CraneShares ETFs and iShares ETFs and those models are skewed a little bit more towards non-US exposure. Still healthy, healthy US exposure and KVLE has a very nice slug within the US equity piece, but more non-US exposure than we've seen in the past and heavy alt content. You're seeing every day you see a funfire article on liquid alts product coming to the marketplace and we have a nice array and a growing array of liquid alts products in the marketplace.
Speaker 2:So you're seeing at the portfolio level a little more non-US because there appears to be more value outside the US on a valuation basis and more liquid alts, absolute return type strategies, managed futures you are starting to see more public-private mixing in portfolios. Right, the challenge in 40-act fund, land ETFs or 40-act funds is there's limits on exposure to private, but you're seeing more public-private types of arrangements. So those are some of the trends, right, I think. Heavier alts, more non-US, as people think that there are more opportunities outside the US. Obviously, there's a home US bias by far half the portfolio is US, but in a global construct you're seeing more and more non-US and some more creative liquid alts and you're seeing many of the big ETF providers that have big franchises and model portfolios have been ratcheting up their liquid alts exposure. Many of the wirehouses now are recommending double-digit exposure to liquid alts.
Speaker 2:The challenge, I think, is what do you mean by liquid alts? Liquid alts can be different things to different people. That's a hodgepodge of stuff that I think over time you'll see you know a little more sense to that, to that stew. Right, there'll be, obviously, managed futures is tried and true Liquid PE. We have a very compelling liquid PE offering that we work with the man group on. It's called Bio ticker. B-u-y-o replicates the performance, attempts to replicate the performance of the bio industry via public equity exposure. Very interesting product there. So you're seeing more and more creative plays in liquid oil so that you have sort of when markets do go down, you have that uncorrelated bucket that can provide nice correlation benefits as well as performance when markets go south from time to time. It's kind of a long-winded answer, but I hope there's some nuggets in there for you and your viewers.
Speaker 1:Delta is an interesting one, right, a lot of alts are still inherently, I'd argue, correlated to the SMP, so they have the liquid ult category name, but in reality it's kind of disguised beta, yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think, Michael? What are you seeing? You're talking to people all the time.
Speaker 1:I'm talking to too many people. Yeah, I think it's the same argument that you made. There's nervousness, there's a desire to diversify away from the S&P, but not be totally out of the S&P because, who knows, it can keep on going the way that it's been going. So but I do think it makes sense on a go-forward basis, especially given the starting valuations of where domestic markets are right, to have other diversifiers. Now, kble, at least you got the higher dividend to your point. It's not exactly the passive side. So sure it may be, from a US market perspective, still overvalued because it's still exposed to the US market, but at least you're in presumably, from what I'm hearing sort of a. You have more of a downside potential buffer, given the way things are going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of the compelling aspects of KVLE is you don't, you won't miss out if tech rallies. Right, 30% of the portfolio, tech, nvidia the largest position, albeit underweight versus NVIDIA in the S&P, but still significant weighting in KVLE. And you don't typically see tech names NVIDIA, apple, microsoft as large positions in traditional large value, large quality, dividend playing portfolio. So here you kind of have your cake and can eat it too. Right, you won't miss out on that rally, but you still get the healthy, juicy dividend, distributable dividend. That's one of the reasons why KBLE is trying to get more traction in the marketplace. Is people understand oh, I'm not just large value. That ship has sailed. I get the dividend with the core equity exposure, with tech exposure. So that's a nice feature that's getting recognized in the marketplace and it's one of the things that's distinguished us from other large value. We're top over the three-year period. We're top quartile in competitive universes. It's been a five-star rated morning star fund over time. Looking forward to seeing the five-year number in a couple of months. Um, so very compelling. It's funny.
Speaker 2:You talk about. You know, home, home bias and what people for a significant part of my career platinum. I oversaw putnam's product design and product activities outside the united states and we're always trying to sort of export a US centric way of thinking about things, managing money to our relationships in Japan and in Europe. And it's you know the US is unique in the money management area. Right, we think of investing as long-term wealth creation right, in many marketplaces outside the US is is very much akin to to, to gambling, and, and you know and it's you know, other countries don't have the traditions and the long-term experience in their marketplaces.
Speaker 2:You take that for granted and so you got it's all a function of, yeah, u S centric. I live in the United States. I my, my last it's my abilities are, yeah, us-centric. I live in the United States, my assets and liabilities are dollar-based. I get the US home-centric biases, but sometimes it's okay to think outside your home country and again, now is the time, I think, to start to look at and incorporate other developed and developing exposures outside the US. That's what we're doing in our model portfolio.
Speaker 1:Of the entire suite. I know KBLE obviously doesn't trade super active. You know 30 million in assets, yeah, but not a lot of activity. Let's talk about sort of the mechanics of an ETF when it comes to volume and liquidity and how to think about maybe positioning.
Speaker 2:There's a lot to that ETF 101 kind of stuff. But KBLE is 30 million in assets, great long-term track record. It is a portfolio that holds large cap names, so it doesn't hold illiquid things. It holds the most liquid securities on the planet, next to treasury bonds, large cap US equity exposure. So the liquidity aspect is not that much of a concern. And again we're seeing it's not meant to be a traded vehicle, it's meant to be core exposure, right, it's meant to be core exposure, right.
Speaker 2:So our clients that are using kvle and and again model providers, uh, use it as core exposure, as sort of ballast exposure within a broader portfolio. They own it and they let it run and ride and it's, it's a compliment and an alternative to classic us core equity smp 500. So it's, it's, it's. It trades pretty tight, um and it's about. You know, turnover is fairly modest. So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a nice core position in the um. The the volume aspect of it has not been an impediment so far. And again, it's, it's, it's, it's picking up steam, if I can say that.
Speaker 1:Anyway, Ms Kevin, do you think it's worth sort of highlighting for the audience as far as KVLE or Craneshare's products in general?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, look, I'll stick with KVLE to start. I mean, I think you know we think of KVLE as a hidden gem within the lineup. It clearly is significant, a significant player in terms of relative performance in its competitive universes. It's at the top of the charts over three years and since inception it's a very, very straightforward product, so we're very excited about it. We think the current environment lends itself to a strategy like KVLE and so again, we're targeting a lot of these model providers and individual financial advisors that are looking for more creative ways to play the US equity market. So that's KVLE.
Speaker 2:And again, craneshares. We're about a $10 billion asset management firm and again, the flagship, what we're known for in the industry is sort of the first to market China, china thematic plays, which are, you know, that's what we're known for. We pump out a ton of education material, our CIO, brendan Ahern, who's on CNBC and TV a lot. We do a lot of handholding with all of our strategies of handholding, with all of our strategies, right. We believe the best way to generate confidence and loyalty in the marketplace is with education, both materials and support for our advisors, particularly in some of the asset classes that we delve into. So we want to make people understand the risks and the rewards with a lot of our products right China, emerging markets. And the rewards with a lot of our products right China, emerging markets. Carbon and climate liquid alts. Right, a lot of these products are high vol type strategies.
Speaker 2:Kvle is a bit of an outlier, right, kvle is a US equity large dividend product. How does that fit in? Right, again, the history of KVLE was again, we have a suite of strategies that we sort of best in class products that are sub advised by other managers. Right, we have, you know, man group, the largest hedge fund, publicly traded hedge fund out of London runs our liquid PE fund. Mount Lucas, legendary managed futures firm runs KMLM. Our managed futures product Value line runs the index that KVLE is based on. So we do have select what we call best in class strategies and what we think to be very important parts of the market that we leverage other firms expertise, and KVLE is is one of those, one of those places. Again, it's, it's a hidden gem in the in the universe and it's it's it's picking up steam. It's recently, a significant portfolio manager on the West Coast is now including it as a complement to its core S&P exposure and we're seeing it more and more, as I mentioned earlier, being utilized in model portfolios.
Speaker 1:Kevin, for those who want to learn more about CraneShares and the full suite of funds, where would you point them to?
Speaker 2:Our website, cranesharescom, all this information we've talked about is outlined in details and material. Yeah, we welcome. We appreciate the time today, we appreciate your attention and thank you so much, michael.
Speaker 1:Thank you, mark, for watching this live stream. This will be an edited podcast under Lead, Like Live, sponsored by Crane Chairs, and I'll see you all on the next episode. Stay tuned, tuned. Some big, big stuff's happening the coming weeks here. Cheers everybody.
