Venezuela's Hidden Crisis Is a Warning for U.S. Investors

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Transcript

Going Live And Setting Context

SPEAKER_02 0:07

All right, folks. As always, give me a second.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

I want to make sure we're streaming live on all the various platforms. Because as I keep mentioning, Lee Lai Live is back to being live as I do these uh I don't know, four or five times a week. Appreciate those that uh do tune in to watch these. Oftentimes I don't prepare for these. Uh, usually just kind of riff uh because I'm so busy. It's hard to prepare. Uh but thankfully uh there's this thing called AI, which helps with uh prep uh five minutes before. But I'm excited for this conversation because uh I don't really have the perspective of uh the international side quite like my guests, and I think it's important for not just me, but for obviously you as the listener to uh understand what's happening on the ground, in particular with uh Venezuela, which is gonna be a big part of the conversation

Herve’s 40 Years In Markets

SPEAKER_01 0:49

here. Uh my name is Michael Guide. I'm the publisher of the Lead Lag Report. I am the founder of Lead Lag Media. My guest today is Herve Van Uh Kalun, who uh just came back from Caracas, has a storied background and history in the investment industry. So, Herve, um first of all, thanks for being a subscriber on the X Premium Academy. I never actually told you that uh in person, but uh introduce yourself to the audience. Who are you? What's your background? What are you done throughout your career?

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Yeah, good morning, Michael. Thank you for having me uh on your uh podcast. Um so I've been investing internationally for uh yeah, probably 40 years now. I joined uh Scota Caesar and Clark back in 1985, and I've been working on international markets uh ever since. And some people may remember um if you're old enough that uh Scutter was a pioneer in international investing, and they started the first Korea Fund and did a lot of uh uh pioneering by going into new markets uh when Korea was still closed. So that is my background. And I uh started my own company, Mercado Investments, um, a little over a decade ago, and I have an uh international portfolio um that has a strong 10-year track record. And but I think what we want to talk about today is uh my trip to Venezuela, which I think is a unique investment opportunity for people who can look uh ahead.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

All right, so let's let's get into that because obviously Venezuela uh made some preview headlines uh earlier in the year. Uh everyone seemingly forgot about it, given what's going on with the RAM. But um, first of all, let's let's let's get into uh why Venezuela is unique from an investment perspective.

Why Venezuela Looks Different

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So back in the early 90s, um, I was a ping weber, another known that has disappeared, but some people may remember, I started a European growth fund, and it was the very first mutual fund to invest in uh in Eastern Europe, just when uh you know the communists collapsed in Poland and Hungary and the Czechoslovakia, as it was called at the time. And um, you know, I have an experience of going to countries that go through major changes from communism to capitalism. And if you look at Poland today, it was a very good investment, but it took a long time. I mean, Poland's now the fastest growing economy um uh in Europe and rapidly catching up with the rest of Europe and becoming a very wealthy country because they really embraced capitalism. The Poland had um a lot of problems early on because they didn't have the infrastructure, and the communism had really destroyed their economy, 70 years of communists will do that. So they really had to rebuild everything from scratch. Now, if you go to Venezuela, and as we know, there are big changes coming uh to Venezuela and are happening very fast. Venezuela has not had uh you know three generations of uh communism and the destruction of its economy and destruction of its infrastructure. So they have the infrastructure, they have the knowledge, they have the education, they have the money coming from oil, um, but not only oil, there's the expats, you know, the eight million uh Venezuelans living outside of um of Venezuela and they're ready to go back. And they've uh made it live in Canada, made it live in Miami, and they're pretty wealthy. So all that money is coming back, uh, plus the knowledge and plus the fact that uh they actually never went completely communist. There are a lot of private uh companies in in um Venezuela that are probably ready to come uh to the stock market.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Okay, so there's nothing quite like being on the ground. Maybe it was for vacation, maybe it was for work, maybe it was coming to each other too. But uh talk to me about the trip to uh Caracas and how long you were there and what surprised you.

Caracas Reality Check On Safety

SPEAKER_00 4:18

So I wanted to go and check it out. And um I yes, I did it a little bit both. I wanted to kind of just walk around. And first thing I can say, Caracas is not uh deju plate, it's quite safe. I spent the whole week uh you know walking around and he didn't work towards through. And to get a sense of uh of the country, um, it's a very happy place, very nice, full of hope. People are very hopeful uh about the changes. Actually, I I think people told me if uh Trump were to run for president in Venezuela, he would win by a landslide because he's so happy about what happened. Even if they don't like the person that it that's to the pie, that it's so happy because uh he hasn't he had given the country UCAP open again. And then I spent a lot of time uh talking to bankers and uh financial uh leader of Venezuela to to understand um the whole transition and and the three-step transition. And again, it's uh quite encouraging and um happening very, very fast.

Meetings With Bankers And Dealmakers

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Who do you meet on the trip? Meeting with um you know people that were on the ground, you know, just locals, government officials, you know, talking about the kind of people you interact with.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Yeah, so at first, you know I was a choice, so I just talked to people. Um, for example, there's a very famous hotel uh in the mountains overlooking uh Caracas, and you have to take a gondola to get up there, and it takes like 25 minutes on in the gondola to get up there, so you have time to trap with people. And there was a young couple um on the gondola, and they were from Miami, and they were actually on the first flight from Miami uh on the American Airlines to Caracas, the first in seven years, and they were so happy to come back to their own country. I mean, they're very coming back and forth, but you know, they they see the opportunities. Now, it so happens that the uh father of that uh woman that I was talking to um owns a tourist company in uh in Venezuela, and um, as you can imagine, uh tourism is a blessing for a business like that because Venezuela used to be a great tourist uh destination for Americans, and so now it's opening up again. They have beautiful beaches, they have amazing uh uh countryside, they have nice uh cities. So tourism will pick up very rapidly. I met with um you know corporate lawyers, uh corporate lawyers who tell me they're they're talking to private equity every day. I mean, the private equities are already sniffing around and ready to do deals. Um so there's a a lot of interest. And then I met with bankers who are waiting for the deregulation that uh I think Rubio and his team are working on because uh the banking sector is completely frozen and it's not doing its job because they because of deregulations and because of the fact, for example, that they have to have um 72% of their capital uh in reserves with the uh central bank, so they have no capital left to lend money. So the whole banking sector is frozen, but you know, they're working very hard on the deregulation and to let the banks uh do their job again. So a lot of different people I talked to, and everywhere it's like you know, change is coming, change is happening, a lot of hope

The Three-Phase Political Transition

SPEAKER_00 7:29

there.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

And on that hope, I'm gonna assume that a large part that's because Maduro is no longer uh in play. Um, what is the mood after that uh took place with what Trump's actions uh meant for Penezuela?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, as I said, they're very happy about what happened. Now, of course, the the transition period, you know, Marco Rio came with a three uh phase plan. The first plan is stabiliz uh stabilization. So that's why we haven't seen a change in regime. It's uh the the president is Delcy Rodriguez, who uh was the vice president of Maduro, so she's part of the regime. And um and I think the idea was uh that if you have a a quick uh chain track in Iraq, uh you would have uh a bad bath. People want revenge, people want to get rid of the old regime, and they are they are angry because of everything that has happened. So the the idea here is to calm down, make sure there's no bad bath, and eventually we'll do the transition. But let's first stabilize and have the present regime, this uh uh Dulcie Rodriguez, who is in charge, work with the Americans and she is cooperating. So they are working hand in hand in uh stabilizing the country. Now we've we've entered the second phase as to um the recovery, the economic recovery. So we have to deregulate, we have to work on um the uh debt uh situation, so the the uh privatization, um you know the banking sector, as was uh saying was you know, needs to be deregulated again. We we so they they are working on on stabilizing the economy, and part of that is bringing down the inflation um rate down. I mean, inflation was up to I mean hacker inflation in 2017-18. Um, it came down to 500% per year last year, and it's now closer to less than 10% a month. So the inflation is coming down, the direction is right, but of course it's still very high. And and because of the inflation situation and because of the uh instability of the country, um, they've now adapted the uh dollarization of their economy already a few years ago. So they need um more dollars to actually get the economy to work uh because there was not enough dollar to actually uh get to a dollar a proper dollarization of the economy. And that was part of the inflation problem. So now with uh oil um revenues growing so fast as uh the production is is better and that the money is actually going to the economy and not in the pockets of the generals, there's more dollars getting into uh injected into the economy, which kind of helps stabilizing uh the um the overall inflation problem. So that's what's going on. They have to kind of bring down the inflation rate, uh, make sure the dollarization is works completely because there's still a discount um uh the uh between the official uh dollar rate and the market rate. The discount is now down from 80% to 30%, but you know, you want to bring it uh back in line with the market rate. So they they they have a lot of things that they have to bring back uh and in order to stabilize the economy. But that's what they're working on now. That's the second part of uh the second phase of the uh transition to normalization of the country. The third phase will come probably within a year, maybe a little bit more than a year, and that's then reinstalling democracy. That's when um you know uh Maria uh Corina Machado, who won the Nobel Prize, as most people know, um, and who is a very popular politician, will probably come back and run for office and will be uh elected um by a landslide if you believe the polls right now. So to reinstall the uh democracy first, we have to get the economy to go again and and stabilize the whole um uh and and so that the plan is to do that probably within 12 months, 18 months, nobody knows. I'm sure Machado is pushing for this to happen uh earlier than uh than uh later. But um it is coming. Everything is moving in the right

Frozen Banking And Shadow Credit

SPEAKER_00 11:40

direction.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

You said earlier something along the lines of um banking is frozen or something along those lines. Um talk to me about how businesses form in Venezuela, meaning where are people getting the capital? Is it is it in kind of like a black market in terms of you know lending? Talk to me about how that works compared to the US.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, that's a very good question because you know there are no mortgages, the banks still cannot lend money, there's no consumer credit, there's no liquidity in the system, so there is all this black market, and you know, the black market is all in dollars, but there's not enough dollars in the system. So that everything is kind of difficult. So a couple of years ago, uh these entrepreneurs came up with the idea uh of starting a uh pay now, uh buy now pay later system. It's a company called Casheo. And so they have been incredibly successful over the, you know, I think over two years they were able to grow their um customer-based to 8 million people, and everybody talks about Cashio, and everybody's using Casheo. So they found a way around to kind of create some liquidity and some consumer-finding. Uh, but all that has to change. The banks will have to um be able to lend money again. Uh, and again, I expect that to happen very quickly. I mean, they're all talking to the central bank, they changed the central bank uh uh people, and and so um they're working on that, but um, you know, it's just a matter of a few months. And then the banks, instead of putting 72% with the central bank, will be able to, I don't know, keep uh 15% of their reserves with the central bank and don't have that money to lend again. Um so it it's it's something that will take a few more months because you have to change all the regulations and and uh change the central bank's mentality.

Beyond Oil: Entrepreneurship And Tourism

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Um, but it's happening.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

So when I think about Venezuela, I think about oil. I think most people think about oil. Um but talking about the the makeup of the economy outside of natural resources, you know, what what's vibrant?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah. So natural resources is very important, and the mining is also very important. It's not just oil and gas. Uh and that's you know a blessing they have. They have huge reserves of uh oil and gas, but also gold. Um that is the obvious uh origin of uh the business uh of money that will come into the country. As I said before, you have a lot of expats that will come back, and already the real estate market in Caracas has doubled in many places as people come back and see the opportunity to buy quite cheaply, very good real estate, uh, not only in Caracas, but they have beautiful resorts and beaches. Um, so you know the real estate market is is already uh picking up. But you have uh highly educated people and and a whole economy and and a country that really looks up to uh the United States much more than any other Latin American country. Uh when I was talking to these bankers and and brokers and uh Caracas, well, they you know, the corporate finance people, you know, they were educated at MIT, Harvard, Cornell, uh the highly educated people, they all at that level they all speak English uh very well. So you have this knowledge of uh the US economy as well. And you have entrepreneurship that um I think is still very present, even though they were restrained from doing their business. Uh, for example, there is the equivalent of a Starbucks uh locally. Now they were able to be quite successful because Starbucks was not allowed to get into Venezuela, but companies called Socado, and it's a Star Starbucks wannabe, and it's probably better than Starbucks because their coffee is so good. Uh, you have two companies uh that are the equivalent of Uber and Lyft. Uh they're called Yummy Rights and uh Ridery or Ridery, I don't know how you pronounce it in uh Spanish. Um when I mentioned on LinkedIn that I was going to um track us and just explore, see if there's a possibility of investing in the stock market, I got immediately contacted on LinkedIn by an entrepreneur who wants to go public with his little company importing uh cars. Um so there's there's there's this entrepreneurship uh uh mentality that uh you don't always find in emerging markets. I mentioned before the tourism, tourism will be huge. It's a very beautiful destination and so easy to go to uh for Americans.

Argentina Comparisons And US Guardrails

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Um Yeah, you'd alluded to uh I think deregulation as part of uh the things that are coming. Um when I think about that, I think about Argentina, and obviously how well Argentina has done a lot. Uh I'm curious, are there any parallels when you look at Venezuela to Argentina a few years ago?

SPEAKER_00 16:19

I think it's even more interesting. Um I was in Buenos Aires a year ago um for the first time. I hadn't uh spent time there. I travel a lot for my business, but it's usually more Europe, Japan, Asia, and all these countries. And I was in Buenos Aires for the first time because of all the changes and incredible changes at the political level. But Buenos Aires wants to be Paris. Uh Caracas looks up at New York, you know. They the the mentality, you know, the the the Argentinians are still uh you know thinking uh they still want to be European. Whereas uh Venezuela is a whole different vibe. They they really believe in capitalism and not in European-style socialism. They really um uh like entrepreneurship and capitalism. I I feel like it's more in a DNA than the Argentinians. Now the political changes and economic changes in Argentina are spectacular, and I really believe it's worth uh looking at uh Argentina as well. Uh I own an Argentinian company in my uh international portfolio, Mercado Libre. Uh so there are some good investments there. But I think it's, you know, capitalism is not in their DNA in Argentina. It will take more time. So I'm always a little bit worried about Argentina. They do the right things for you know two or three years and then they go back to the all-bad uh economic management. Uh I think Venezuela is a different story, and especially with America being so involved. Um, so you you have these guardrails, which are called the United States of America, where they've got to make sure they keep um going in the right direction.

Tiny Stock Market And Privatization Path

SPEAKER_01 17:51

All right. Um the stock market in Venezuela. Uh let's talk about liquidity, let's talk about how many uh stocks there are. Kind of talk me through sort of the opportunity center.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

So that's where it's very early days. It's still a very underdeveloped uh stock market. It was even before the Shavista regime. Uh so I think the total market capitalization is like you know, 15% of the GDP. And the GDP has shrunk by 70% uh ever since uh Shavista was uh Chavez was um elected. So so we're talking about a um market capitalization that's probably $17 billion. It's very small. Um there are like very few companies that are publicly traded, a lot of companies are still in private hands, but here's the opportunity. The government, uh part of the whole uh revival of the economy uh will go through privatization. There are a lot of companies that are owned by the government that need to be privatized. So that will come probably uh to a large degree through the stock market. As I mentioned before, you have these uh smaller entrepreneurial companies that um want to go public. So all that is coming. Already two companies have uh approached the stock market that they're publicly companies, but um they have very little, very true stocks on uh uh that are public uh in public hands, and so they want to increase their capital. So I think part of what I want to do is help create liquidity for the stock market um that will need it. I mean, as I said before, the banks are not doing their job, you know, um liquefying the economy. Uh so the stock market is an alternative. So if you want to go and start a privatization program like you did in Eastern Europe uh at the end of the communist regime, uh you're gonna need uh a stock market and an efficient stock market, and you're gonna need capital that goes into the stock market. And that's where we want to be very early on and take a position in the overall economy and then participate in the privatization of the economy and participate it in um in those IPOs that that are coming. Uh I mentioned the Starbucks-like and the uh Uber-like companies, but there are many other companies that uh will come to the stock market.

Opportunities Outside Caracas

SPEAKER_01 20:10

I assume when you look at Venezuela, it's like most other uh emerging economies and countries. You've got a lot of economic activity centered in certain city hub spots, and then outside of that, it's very rural and basic and and um not as vibrant from economic perspective. What about opportunities outside of sort of the uh the traditional uh things that are are out there like on the public side?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Well, I I I think that that will root uh a second pit. Uh, I'm gonna need to kind of uh dig in a little bit more. I spent uh this trip in Caracas to just get a first uh impression. Uh I do strongly believe that you're gonna have um you know tourism gonna be a big part of that outside of Caracas. Um, you know, again, or I was talking about privatization, the government owns a lot of hotels, beautiful hotels, all over the country. Um that will come to the market, and given that will be part of the county outside of Caracas. Um mining, as I said before, is uh is a big uh part of their economy. Um but again, I mean I think now we we're talking about uh the next step, uh my next step to the planet very soon, and is going visit all these companies outside and and kind of get a good sense of uh of the overall economy. Right now we're still at the phase where they have to stabilize the economy and and and you you participate with the large banks. Well, you know, a lot of these banks are public, uh large utilities, there's a um, you know, agriculture business that uh you can buy on the stock market. There's a major RAM uh comp producer that's uh you know publicly quoted. So um right now it's more like a top down decision. Uh the next step will be to indeed do what you say. You go and and look at the at the rest of the country and

Building A Venezuela Investment Vehicle

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Economy.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Now, obviously, you're not doing this just for uh pure curiosity. And there's a reason why you're doing this. Um, you're going to be launching a strategy, a vehicle around Venezuela. I know it's early days, but uh talk me through why you want to do that. I mean, obviously you see architecture there. That's that's one of the clear whys. But uh why Venezuela in particular, um, why now?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah. So there are a number of reasons. I as I said, I I've done that before in countries like um Poland and Hungary. Um, I was associated with the Korea Fund early on. And look at the Korea Fund, I mean, that was an incredible success when a country decides to open up, uh, get rid of um, you know, and Korea was also a military regime, um, and but then they decide to open up their capital, open up their, you know, the economy, free market, um, and you let people develop their economy. So that is what is happening uh in Venezuela. Again, with the guardrails that America is bringing, making sure they continue to keep going in that direction, with the capital that's coming uh from abroad, uh, and not just from oil, but also from um, you know, all the expats and the diaspora that's uh living around um uh Venezuela, a lot of them in Brazil and in Colombia, but also in Miami uh or in Canada. Uh so you have everything coming together at a time when I think they're desperate to rebuild their economy and they're they're so eager to um you know create wealth again. Uh so I've never seen um you know such a um combination of everything that's coming together at the same time. Even Korea was not as attractive, I think, you know, although it turned out to be an amazing economic success over the 30 years, 40 years since. But here it can happen so fast. You know, Poland is a huge success, but it took a long time because they had to rebuild the infrastructure, which again, uh Venezuela doesn't have that problem. They have an infrastructure. Um so I I kind of see uh the turnaround happening much faster than all the other um countries. And the turnaround is here to stay, because as I said before, countries like Venezuela, uh like Argentina or Brazil, for a while they look very attractive, but then they go back to the old ways uh because it's not in their DNA to really build an economy. I think Venezuela is it's very different from the rest of uh Latin America in that sense. And again, because of the involvement of the United States, these changes are here to stay. And then again, it's gonna happen fast and it's gonna continue. It's not gonna go back to the old days. Now, there's still political risk. We still have to go through the third phase and make sure that Machado becomes president, and she's very pro-free market and pro-market uh economy. Um, and we're not there yet, you can still have some trouble. But just imagine if you're invested in uh Venezuela stock exchange today, and uh in sixth month from now, you have the headlines, Machado is the president, and she's liber you know opening up the economy even more. This dark market is gonna go through a roof. So you want to be there before.

Geopolitics Shift Away From Russia China

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Let's um zoom out because you've got a very global perspective. When you look at geopolitical risks, you look at other dynamics in terms of Trump and the rest of the globe. Is Venezuela gonna be more isolated now given its you know trajectory and given what's happened post-Meduro?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Well, that's a very good question. I mean, definitely I was hesitating to choose a I mean, I was choosing a hotel in Crackers and they thought me you can go to the very nice Dupeak hotel that you know where the Records used to devolve upon, or you can go through the Marriott where all Americans go. But the Recons used to be there, um, they're no longer there. The Chinese used to be there, they're no longer there. So they they're so they've lost, and and and Iranians were there too. Um so obviously went down and are being recerned right. In that sense, they're gonna be isolated from Russia and China. I mean, that might be a good thing, because China was, you know, plundering the country and so is Russia. Uh China was getting their oil at a big distance from Venezuela. Um so I think it's the opposite. I think uh now they're entering um you know the Western world, uh back in that's the um part of the Western uh world, uh, and that's both Europe and the United States, uh, and then probably Japan and Korea. So uh no, I think they were isolated and they were limited. You know, their friends were Cuba, Iran, and uh Russia and China. And uh now they no longer have to give for free their oil to the Cubans anymore. So they they're actually getting a lot of money, and the money is no longer going into the generals' pockets, uh, it's going into the economy this time and sharing with the uh American country. And then the other thing is that you know, um we talk about the geopolitics of uh today.

Dollarization Inflation And FX Gap

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Well, the oil price being at $100 is actually very good for them. So you know, uh they are enjoying um higher oil prices, so not that they want Iran to continue forever, but they are a beneficiary of high oil prices.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Aaron Powell But talk me through that a little bit because it's it's it so they you hear that line that they benefit from higher high oil prices. But uh does that does that trickle down to individuals? How do how do the the locals feel that if at all?

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Well, I don't think they feel it right now, but it it stabilized the economy and they feel in a sense that the um that money goes back into the economy, which means it's dollars going back into the economy. And I was talking about the dollarization before. So and they had a problem because they uh you had a bar parallel economies, you know, the official uh currency, which is the bolvar, and then you had the the dollar, and everybody is trying to get a dollar because the the value of your bolivars uh you know was going down every second uh because of the high inflation. So as soon as you had some bolivars, you wanted to buy dollars and so like at least you could keep Europe earnings. Um but there were not enough dollars in the system. So thanks to the revenues um that are no longer being hijacked by the generals or by China, uh the revenues, those dollars are are being pumped into the system. In that sense, people um benefit already, uh, the people in on the street benefit already from the changes because the the discount of the value of uh the dollar um is no longer 80%. I mean, meaning, you know, if the official rate uh versus the market rate, the official rate was like um you know 80% below the market rate. Now that that gap has reduced been reduced to 30%. So eventually uh there's gonna be enough dollars in the system that you can just have a dollar economy. Sorry about that. Um and and and just there there won't be a difference between the official rate that the central bank is setting and the uh the market

How To Reach Herve And What’s Next

SPEAKER_00 29:08

rate.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

So I know um uh again, still early days on the new uh fund you're gonna launch, you put a structure on it. But for those that want to follow you, that want to get in touch with you, that actually want to engage and learn more about Venezuela, because I do think you've you've got an interesting sort of um uh niche to focus on giving your experience and that you're focused on this so heavily. Uh, how should people reach out to you?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, so please uh you know I have a website, Mercator Investments.com. Uh please come and and and and reach out. Uh you can send us an email or call us. Uh we are, you know, we we'd be very interested to to hear from you. The way we want to structure it is that um, and why we haven't launched it yet, is that we want to work with a strong local partner. We're talking to um you know major banks, uh all the major banks that also went next week, and also the major broker, um, and we're trying to set up a partnership that uh you know will give us enough insight into the companies, um, and then you know we will be co-managing uh the product. It's that'd be probably uh uh some kind of hedge fund, I think. Um so we we are in the process of doing that. Um but we need we need some local expert expertise because obviously, unlike the rest of the world, where you know I'm gonna be in Stockholm next next week and I'm gonna meet with a lot of uh small and medium companies in Stockholm, uh, and there, you know, I can do my homework, but I haven't had a chance to actually do my homework in Venezuela, and there's not as much information available. Although companies uh that are quoted on the stock market have to publish uh semi-annual uh um uh results. So so there is in there is information, but I I still have to educate myself and I need to work with local people who who understand uh the local market, but don't have my financial background. So I think that's how we're gonna combine

Final Thoughts And Sign-Off

SPEAKER_00 31:04

it.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

I wish you the best of luck. I think uh you've got a lot of uh potential opportunity, not just uh for your own wealth, but other people that invest with you. So uh appreciate those that watch this live. This will be an edited podcast. I apologize in advanced folks for not advanced post for the uh some of the sound quality issues. I will make sure that's much cleaner. I have some AI agents also for that. And uh make sure you follow uh Irve on X and connect him, and uh, he's always accessible to answer questions. And I think that's a big plus when it comes to uh thought leaders in the space. So thank you everybody. I thank everybody, and I'll see you on the next episode of Lee Lag Live.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Thank you, Michael. Cheers, everybody. Okay, give it a second.